From: Asdmail@AOL.COM
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 21:44:18 -0400 (EDT)
To: xenaverse@umail.umd.edu
Subject: Xenaverse vs. General Fan
They do hear us when it comes to our general opinion on Joxer. I know that
because Brad Carpenter, a producer of some sort, at the Sacramento Convention
asked the crowd about him. He asked "Who here likes Joxer?" and most of the
crowd clapped and cheered. He then said something about not understanding
why the internet fans have such a problem with him.
I believe the Xena producers are of the opinion that a minority section of
the fan base (internet) dislike him, but the general population does like
him. From the positive reaction his name got at the Sacramento Convention
they may be right. And afterall, the Three Stooges and Jerry Lewis were
popular as well so that level of humor a lot of people like for whatever
reason.
Personally I don't hate him or his character, I just think he'd fit in a lot
better on a different show.
I think you can guess I was one of the few ones that sat there quietly
instead of cheering. ;)
Tony D
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 11:29:15 -0600
From: SheWho <shewho@vii.com>
To: xenaverse@umail.umd.edu
Subject: Re: TR's VF con appearance
References: <970914101616_1322408446@emout10.mail.aol.com>
MICKISIX@aol.com wrote:
<re TR>
> I plan on getting up and walking out at VF as soon as he makes his stage
> appearance.
I don't plan on staying through Raimi's talk, not particularly as a
hostile gesture toward Ted Raimi, but simply because, since I have no
interest in the character, I don't really have any interest in the
actor. As attendees at a Con, whether X:WP or otherwise, I assume that
people pick and choose which speakers they want to see. At Burbank, I
wanted more time to browse among the booths, and TR's half-hour was a
convenient time to slip out. (Hey, that's it--it's the *merchants* who
keep scheduling TR! ;)) One thing I noticed about the Warrior Con
line-up: I don't know when I would have shopped, since I wanted to see
all their guests.
SheWho
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 11:54:32 -0700
To: "'Deb7' DE McGhee" <demcghee@u.washington.edu>
From: Barron Chugg <barron@barron.simplenet.com>
Subject: Re: TR's VF con appearance
Cc: MICKISIX@aol.com, xenaverse@umail.umd.edu
There have been so many messages on this topic that I am chosing Deb's
because she responded to mine. If I mention other posters, please forgive
my lack of exact quotes...
At 9:50 AM -0700 09/14/97, 'Deb7' DE McGhee wrote:
>On Sun, 14 Sep 1997, Barron Chugg wrote:
>>
>> Ted will not be appearing _as_ the character. If he were I would gladly
>> join you in walking out. No, he is appearing as an actor. Since I believe
>> he should be seperated from his character, I really cannot justify the
>> personal affront that walking out would symbolize. As of now, I have
>> decided that I will not applaud and will sit quietly during his appearence.
>> One hopes that TPTB will be able to see the difference between that
>> reaction and the HUGE response Hudson will receive.
>
>I understand the distinction you are making Barron, but TR is appearing as
>the actor who portrays Joxer... not just some random actor. In my mind, to
>sit there is to implicitly show support for the role that TR plays in XWP:
>I despise that role and I did *not* pay $67.50 (plus expenses) to see TR and
>will not suggest by omission of action that I did.
I agree with you here. Ted definately deserves some of the blame for the
character, just as Lucy and Renee deserve the credit for their characters.
I doubt you would hear anyone arguing that Lucy should not receive kudos
for Xena because John Schullian is listed as the "Creator" in the credits.
That said, I would like to advocate for a middle ground. Call it the
"empty seat" idea. Since Creation schedules their conventions fairly
tightly, I recommend simply not being in your seats during his talk. This
way there is no person quality that "walking out" en masse would have, and
yet you have still made your disinterest/displeasure known. As someone who
spent time in theatre as a beardless youth, I am seriously troubled by
offering a personal affront to an actor. So leave your programs on your
seats and take some air. You'll be sure to meet other similarly minded
folks!
>Civil action often crosses the line of civility; it is often the last line
>of attack but often the most effective. Obviously, other methods have
>proved inadequate. The "no applause" route has already proved its
>inadequacy: Previous reports have suggested that even though folks were
>only "politely" applauding, their reactions were seen as "warm" and
>"cordial".
That was from Spectrum, I believe. They are not exactly a voice of
rationality, IMHO. I bitched about that line too.
On a side note, it seems that there is some understanding that the
character is not that popular...look at the dearth of merchandise for him.
It's funny that we can adopt a cynical, ultra-capitalist attitude when
wondering if TPTB are cutting back on subtext, but not here. In a way,
TPTBs willingness to stick by Joxer in all this is a good thing, it means
that they are willing to hang tough on a potentially unpopular issue (like,
say, subtext). Just a random thought I had...not meant to be seen as a
criticism of my fellow detractors.
> Welp, I don't want my lukewarm response to be mistaken for warm
>reception, but neither will I boo and hiss the man. I will let me vacant
>seat speak for me.
I have no problem at all with people leaving for his presentation. I just
want to advocate for not walking out when he comes out.
>(and i hope this difference of opinion doesn't bode ill for that ride from
>the airport! <g>)
Just makes for more interesting discussion! :-) We're _much_ more in
agreement than differnce.
Barron
ROCoholic Bay Area Xenite
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 07:08:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: "'Deb7' DE McGhee" <demcghee@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
To: xenaverse@umail.umd.edu
Subject: Con etiquette (fwd)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 07:23:57 -0400
From: Carmen and/or Kate <ccarter@shentel.net>
To: 'Deb7' DE McGhee <demcghee@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Con etiquette
Deb,
I was rather puzzled by all the recent internet commotion about attending,
or not attending, a particular speaker's appearance at a con. Then I
realized that Xena fandom is relatively young and has drawn many newbies
who aren't familiar with what is, and is not, appropriate behavior at a
convention. So, here's my perspective -- as both a fan and a guest -- on
con etiquette. Feel free to post my comments on any list.
INAPPROPRIATE BEHAVIOR
It is considered rude to sit in the audience while a guest is speaking and
do any of the following: talk, sleep, look bored, look hostile, stand in
your seat to get photos, or get in and out of your seat too often if you're
in the middle of a row.
ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR
On the other hand, it is perfectly acceptable to scan your program schedule
and decide which guests you want to hear...and which you don't. You are
under no obligation to attend all the convention guest appearances. If you
decide to skip a part of the program, show common courtesy: leave your seat
with a minimum of commotion and make a token effort to avoid walking in
front of people who are taking pictures in the aisle.
However, bear in mind that your reasons for leaving are entirely your own
and do *not* need to be announced in any fashion. If you happen to dislike
a particular speaker, or if you need to take a whiz, please keep that
information to yourself.
Over my past thirty years as a fan, I have attended dozens of conventions
and I rarely listen to all the guests. Some actors simply don't interest
me; there are other actors who I like very much on screen, but who are poor
speakers; and there are many actors who are entertaining speakers, but I've
seen them before. So sometimes I decide to go the dealer's room instead, or
to go sightseeing in the city, or even to go take a nap. That's perfectly
okay.
I can also address this issue from my experience as a con guest. I've had
two thousand people show up to hear me talk...because Patrick Stewart was
the next speaker on the agenda. <g> On another occasion, I had two people
show up; it was just one of those days when everybody had somewhere else
they wanted to be. Frankly, I prefer an enthusiastic audience of two people
over an audience of two hundred people who are simply saving seats until
another speaker appears. If you don't want to hear me talk, go get a soda.
No hard feelings.
AUTOGRAPHS
By the same token, no fan should feel obligated to get the autographs of
all the actors attending a con. When I go to a book signing of Trek
authors, I know that Peter David will have a line that wraps around the
block...and I will not. I would be appalled if someone at the con felt
obliged to buy one of my books and get it signed because they were worried
my feelings would be hurt. Autographs sessions are a service for the
*fans*, not a popularity contest for the actors or other guests. And if you
aren't interested, it is perfectly acceptable to *politely* refrain from
taking advantage of that service.
However, if you feel really awkward passing by actors in the autograph
line, keep your program book handy.
From: MICKISIX@aol.com
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:32:22 -0400 (EDT)
To: jkessler@selu.edu, xenaverse@umail.umd.edu
Subject: Re: 11 Joxer episodes????
In a message dated 97-09-14 17:54:43 EDT, you write:
> Does anyone know of the address to send snail mail to, so that I can tell
> TPTB that I will be boycotting the Joxer heavy episodes? I suggest that we
> start a snail mail campaign because they're obviously not taking the outcry
> on the Internet seriously.
>
> Malinda
>
I plan on sending a copy of my letter to RP as well, less of course the bit
about calling all xenites to action.
Here is the address:
Renaissance Pictures
100 Universal City Plaza
Universal City, CA 91608
Mickisix
"You taught me that greatness doesn't depend on fighting. It's the battles
you chose and the people you protect." --Xena: Hooves & Harlots.
From: LisaJain@aol.com
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:14:08 -0400 (EDT)
To: jkessler@selu.edu, xenaverse@umail.umd.edu
cc: Avicus@aol.com, Tyldus@aol.com
Subject: Re: 11 Joxer episodes????
Avicus is on this list.
But one of the reasons Joxer is more prevalent is so that Gabrielle doesn't
always have to be used as a comic foil and can assume a more adult identity
as befitting her station in life as Xena's more or less co-equal rather than
as a strictly sidekick functional companion.
LJ
In a message dated 97-09-14 17:52:23 EDT, jkessler@selu.edu writes:
<< Is that true???? Oh my God!!! What idiots have taken control of the
show????
Does anyone know of the address to send snail mail to, so that I can tell
TPTB that I will be boycotting the Joxer heavy episodes? I suggest that we
start a snail mail campaign because they're obviously not taking the outcry
on the Internet seriously.
Malinda
>>
From: Avicus@aol.com
Sent: 16 September 1997 19:59
To: xenaverse@umail.umd.edu
Subject: RE: Idiots
To Xenaverse,
In a message dated 97-09-14 17:47:24 EDT, someone wrote:
<< Is that true???? Oh my God!!! What idiots have taken control of the
show???? >>
Hmm... I guess my answer to that question would be - the same idiots who
conceived the show in the first place and have been working on it since the
very beginning, myself included.
Regards,
Avicus
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nicely countered!
When are so-called fans all going to stop this pointless, destructive
bickering?
So far as I am concerned a list like this should be for the furtherance of the
show, where fans can meet, talk and generally have a good time and on
occasions, also meet those who are at the 'sharp end'. We do not necessarily
influence decisions taken, but we are able to provide constructive views and
feed back.
It is run by fans who give up their time and energy for the rest of us.
Unfortunately, once again a very small minority has influenced out of all
proportion what is going on here, and I would suggest, with respect, once
again, misrepresented the vast majority of the views of the fans and those on
this list.
Everybody has a right to their own well thought out measured and constructive
views. But when it comes down to pointed, personal attacks, then we have to
say ENOUGH.
As an English fan of Tyldus, Avicus, Lucy Lawless, Rene O'Connor, TED RAIMI,
and all who work to bring the show we all love so much to the screen, if I am
to believe a few allegedly misguided individuals, I must also stand up and
declare myself an idiot.
Anyone else want to stand up with me and also declare themselves to be idiots
and respecters of 'idiotdom'.
One further thing, without the dedicated work of the people mentioned above
and the rest of the Xenastaff, there would be no show.
Then who would be the real idiots.
Think on it.
Stop these personal attacks.
Ian Rentoul
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 00:08:21 -0700
To: Avicus@aol.com
From: correa <correa@inetworld.net>
Subject: Re: Idiots
Cc: xenaverse@umail.umd.edu
>In a message dated 97-09-14 17:47:24 EDT, someone wrote:
>> Is that true???? Oh my God!!! What idiots have taken control of the
>>show????
>Hmm... I guess my answer to that question would be - the same
>idiots who conceived the show in the first place and have been working
>on it since the very beginning, myself included.
>Regards,
>Avicus
> And don't most of us just love y'all?
> Maureen....inveterate and irredeemable idiot lover
>Count me in, too, Maureen.!!!
>Rita Reckless
>Hey you two...count me in as well!!! ;-)
>MaryM.
>> **Me three! I'm an expert on idiots<G>
>> SAL_FAN
>Am I four then?
>EverGeek
>GG
>Hey, some of my best (fictional) friends are idiots! Add me to the list
>of Idiot Idolaters!
>Autolycous--
==========================
Yes, Maureen MOST of us do love the "idiots" who put together the best darn
show on TV, week after week. It's sad that it takes just a few alienate
the many.
Isn't amazing? These last few days, the 2 major stories this week in the
Xenaverse are such opposite extremes...
On one hand we've been told of the boundless kindness, friendship, &
generosity many Xenites demonstrated during the Warrior Con. On the other,
we have seen the hostility, rudeness & lack of common decency directed
toward another *person*, Ted Raimi. I just hope it's the former we
continue to strive for and are remembered as and not the latter.
Before you reply that you CAN separate the character from the actor. It
really doesn't matter. Because if you do a mass demonstration (no matter
what the form) during his public appearance - you *are* directing your
disapproval directly at Ted and he will be hurt and embarrassed (I know I
would be). Nobody deserves that, no matter how much you dislike his
character.
Jumping off my soapbox and joining the bandwagon of Idiot Lovers!
Lucia
#6 on the list. Oops, I forgot there is no #6. Correction - number #7!
To: Avicus@AOL.COM, "Ian Rentoul"
<IRentoul@classic.msn.com>,
xenaverse@umail.umd.edu
From: kronus <mkgardn@ibm.net>
Subject: RE: Idiots
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 02:22:47 -0700
Reply-To: kronus <mkgardn@ibm.net>
>
> To Xenaverse,
>
> In a message dated 97-09-14 17:47:24 EDT, someone wrote:
>
> << Is that true???? Oh my God!!! What idiots have taken control of the
> show???? >>
>
> Hmm... I guess my answer to that question would be - the same idiots who
> conceived the show in the first place and have been working on it since the
> very beginning, myself included.
>
> Regards,
> Avicus
>
>
> As an English fan of Tyldus, Avicus, Lucy Lawless, Rene_ O'Connor, TED
RAIMI,
> and all who work to bring the show we all love so much to the screen, if I
am
> to believe a few allegedly misguided individuals, I must also stand up and
> declare myself an idiot.
>
> Anyone else want to stand up with me and also declare themselves to be
idiots > and respecters of 'idiotdom'.
>
Ian, I also must be an idiot. I have loved the show from the beginning. I
admit, I didn't like Joxer to begin with, but he has grown on me. I enjoy the
show as a whole and love what EVERY actor & writers, directors, producers, etc.
put into the show. Without them, there would be no Xena, no Xenaverse, and
those of us that have met as a result of the show, wouldn't have. Everyone
think about how many friendships that have come about because of Xena would not
exist today. I have made on-line friends all over the world, and I have met in
person people from Minnesota, Texas, New York, Portland, Kansas (my home),
Indiana, and many other places. I would not have met any of these people if
Xena was not created.
All I can say is "Thanks: R. Tapert, S. Raimi, Avicus, Tyldus, LL, ROC, HL, TR,
Xena, Gab, Callisto, AND Joxer.
Peace,
kronus
GABsessed Watcher
Keeper of the SF con list